2008年11月24日 星期一

蔡英文為過去道歉,並簽下「人權永久保固書」

今天在自由廣場由「野草莓人權治喪委員會」設立的人權靈堂,下午持續開放民眾上香。人權治喪委員會於日前(星期五),寄發訃文予國、民兩黨主席、總統、行政院長……等,但僅民進黨黨主席蔡英文,於下午兩點十五分左右現身,來到自由廣場上香致意。

在蔡英文上香後,野草莓出示一紙「人權永久保固書 」,請蔡英文代表民進黨,為過去八年執政期間,對於人權保障推動不力,及侵害人權的政策道歉(例如樂生拆遷、新移民政策……),以及執政時未能致力推動修改集會遊行法,向大眾道歉。對此,蔡英文道歉說,民進黨執政期間,對於修改集會遊行法的推動確實是有所忽略。但學生卻質疑,如此委婉的一句「忽略」,掩蓋了民進黨其實是「阻擋」修法的事實。但學生還是期待,蔡英文能將今日針對集遊法的道歉,儘速在修法程序上有所行動,化作社會大眾的實質利益。

同時,「人權永久保固書 」上也要求蔡英文以民進黨主席的身分允諾,未來民進黨,無論在朝在野,將全力終止行政濫權、國家暴力,並改善台灣人權,如言論自由、集會結社自由……等日趨惡化之環境。然而,蔡英文的回應,字字句句將民進黨描繪為政治弱勢的在野黨,野草莓對此並不認同。民進黨身為第二大黨,有豐厚的政治資源,且經歷過八年的政黨輪替,不應再以「在野」為藉口,而應該與執政黨共同擔起改善台灣人權環境的責任。

最後,關於上述的問題,蔡英文做出善意的回應,並親筆簽名,以表達她對野草莓所提問題的承諾與誠意,並一同參與了行動藝術的實踐,留下「野草莓要堅持、勇敢」的字句鼓勵學生。未來,野草莓與社會大眾,都將一同檢視民進黨是否具體落實此承諾。

53 則留言:

Kerr 提到...

哈...
終於選顏色了啊

chris_box 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
chris_box 提到...

抱歉!因為誤解了日期與時間,將前一篇山除了內容。

Alt - 提到...

Kerr,

看到你想要看的,你好像很得意啊。

那其他顏色的呢?來了嗎?他們不需要人權嗎?

還是,只要馬先生一句:『我把你們當人看』,就夠了?

有一本書,介紹你讀一下:True Enough, Learning to Live in a Post-Fact Society by Farhad Manjoo.

Kerr, 人權天賦,卻需要我們去用力爭取而來。我們的先民為我們流血流汗,今天這些孩子們想的,就是把它保留下來,為大家的子子孫孫。他們是台灣的驕傲,也是台灣的良心。

這裡面,包含你,也包含你的子孫。

祝福你...

Paul 提到...

不是聲稱無政治立場,不與特定政黨
連結嗎..?

年紀輕輕的為甚麼要學政客說謊欺騙呢..?

草莓ㄚ草莓,綠了的草霉誰要吃呢..?

Alt - 提到...

Paul,

你的想像力,真不是蓋的...

蔡英文來,為的是人權,你從那一點看到政治立場?你從那一點看到特定政黨?他們有拒絕國民黨或其他政黨嗎?

有一點我實在是很不了解:你的發言很像一個小丑,不著邊際,你說:『年紀輕輕的為甚麼要學政客說謊欺騙呢..?草莓ㄚ草莓,綠了的草霉誰要吃呢..?』,什麼樣的人會寫出這樣的字句?What's wrong with you?

假如你是屬於那個特定政黨的,那個政黨大概是沒有希望了。

Kat 提到...

Kerr and Paul,

Please read the entry carefully. It says, "寄發訃文予國、民兩黨主席、總統、行政院長……等,但僅民進黨黨主席蔡英文,於下午兩點十五分左右現身,來到自由廣場上香致意"。

The blog entry was merely reporting that Dr. Tsai has shown up. Maybe 吳伯雄也會來啊? It's very sad to see that the first thing you do was hurry on the comment board to label and color.

Kaisay 提到...

貪污阿扁高舉手銬 說司法破壞人權
遊行不負責的小英 也說人權
野草莓 席地靜坐 也喊人權
這年頭 人權是最棒的消費卷 人人都可以參上一腳

Kaisay 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
海和尚 提到...

簽下什麼保固書,還不是那些以前騙選票時的老步數,今天又拿到你們身上吧了;不過是給你們摸摸頭吧了,真拿來當做寶嗎??不要那麼健忘阿
唉~~~
無路用啦你們這些人!!

海和尚 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
Paul 提到...

To:Alt

蔡英文是啥身分..?
吳育昇邀你們去公聽,你們是啥態度..?

沒有政治色彩,不與特定政黨連結是
你們一直標榜的..

你別當別人都是瞎子..

Paul 提到...

To:kat

多年來政治觀察,或許我變得敏感
又武斷..

不幸的是,我的敏感跟武斷卻常常
被證實..

舉一例,野草莓發起人李明璁..
當初言之咄咄無政黨傾向..

事實證明,他本來就有強烈政黨傾向..

你看著好了,這種廉價的包裝是是
無法持久的..

我可以在多挖些事證給你..
只不過怕傷了你們的心..
你自己多看多聽多想吧..

Alt - 提到...

Paul,

"蔡英文是啥身分..?
吳育昇邀你們去公聽,你們是啥態度..?",你不是自打嘴巴嗎?

由此可見,蔡、吳兩人對人權的態度,真假立判。人民絕對不是像你口中的瞎子。

唯有對人民集體的智慧沒有信心的人,(就是指你啦),才會想出"別人都是瞎子“的心念。

鐵難 提到...

對於沒有推動完全自由的集會遊行法, 做了一年多的行政院副院長只需道歉即可?

請問草莓一族的標準是什麼?

綠營的錯誤可以等待下台後再行研究

執政後千頭萬緒 (金融海嘯不知道算不算), 可以算是合適的藉口, 等兩年後再行討論

行政院副院長等級躺下做個人型 (當時的院長是蘇貞昌, 副總統是呂秀蓮, 總統是陳水扁), 即可既往不究



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引用自 : 執政8年未修集遊法 蔡英文道歉

野草莓學運進入第十九天,民進黨主席蔡英文昨日前往自由廣場聲援,並為民進黨執政八年沒有修改《集會遊行法》致歉。她表示,綠營執政後千頭萬緒,不夠注意集遊法等人權問題,沒有盡力促成修法或廢掉集遊法,「這個我們真的感到非常抱歉。」


蔡英文並指出,這段期間有些社運人士因為集遊法,有很多司法的案件糾葛,民進黨也覺得非常抱歉。

Cyrix 提到...

願主保佑台灣的民主自由,也讓還不明白民主自由可貴的人了解,這是一份得來不易的事。

鐵難 提到...

檢察官後代的人權, 在所謂的憲政大師下, 只是一待宰的豬, 隨時可以拿來凌虐與詛咒.

臺灣人連免於恐懼的人權, 與生在那個人家的自由都沒有了, 草莓一族你們有何反應?



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引用自: 挺扁!李鴻禧咒檢察官不得好死

得意門生陳水扁,從總統摔成階下囚,老師李鴻禧挺到底,痛批檢察官和法官。教授李鴻禧(97.11.22):「我一輩子在教法律的人,教出很多法律的學生,去做不公不義的法官,不公不義的檢察官,所以我好痛苦,那些做法官亂來的人,那些做檢察官亂來的人,我要來詛咒,詛咒他們一代二代三代,都不得好死。」

student 提到...

沒什麼好爭的了啦,大家

野草莓已和蔡英文簽好了合約

野草莓所有活動都名正言順了

一切的準備不就是為了這一刻嗎?

其它都是空談啦~~

合約都簽了

野草莓也不可能中立了

也不可能正義了

這就是為什麼當初訴求怎麼講就是不修的主要原因

今天結果一出來就很清楚明白了

從一開始這就是精心計畫的行動

從反中到反警反政府到要人權到要修集遊法...

都是有計畫的進行

一直到今天和綠營簽約(在鏡頭前)後...

終於呀...終於呀...

野草莓行動終於合理了,名正了,言也順了...

原來一切都是有心政客的精心設計

真是太令人佩服了

真是完美的計畫

完美的開始,完美的過程,完美的簽約

一切都順利無誤的照計畫走

大學生!!

佩服!!

student 提到...

這東西要是沒色彩為何只有蔡英文來~~?
因為這是只有民進黨認可並支持的運動嘛!!

親民黨呢?台聯黨呢?無黨籍呢?其它黨籍呢?

更不用說國民黨了~~

不參加不簽約~~~就是不尊重人權呀~~~

那全台近9成民眾都不尊重人權

只有你們野草莓和民進黨最尊重人權了啦

這樣是代表其它台灣人都不用活了,不值得活著

都因為沒有人權,不尊重人權而應該自行切腹自殺

或是都被打死了,都被罵到吐血而死了

所以都沒來簽人權合約了....是吧

二分法是吧~~~~切割的還真用心呢~~~~

沒色彩~~~鬼才信~~~去多找些鬼來背書吧!!!

從頭到尾都相信野草莓的大學生們真是可憐~~~

從頭被騙到尾...

野草莓堪稱是全台最年輕,組織分散最廣,技術最優良的~~

.詐.騙.集.團.

linda 提到...

有顏色又怎樣?照那些很在意顏色的人的看法,是-綠色重視人權,
綠色重視自由,
綠色重視言論自由,
綠色重視集會自由,
因為現在是藍色執政,所以只要是綠色重視的,藍色的都要棄之如敝屣.

鐵難 提到...

樓上的linda

"詛咒你家一代二代三代都不得好死",

請問你要保障
言論自由的人權?
還是免於恐懼的人權?

Alt - 提到...

Student,

不知道你是不是真的是個student?

你說“從一開始這就是精心計畫的行動

從反中到反警反政府到要人權到要修集遊法...

都是有計畫的進行“,

你是說馬英九和陳雲林也配合這個精心計劃的行動?

你真的相信你說的話?

小心特偵組控告你洩露國家機密,也來個收押取供,限制住居,人權變不見。

drtoy 提到...

student還是一如往常,除了謾罵、鬼扯,
通篇看不出什麼論述,
人家簽的是『人權永久保固書』,
哪來什麼合約啊?!真是奇怪,
要虎爛也至少看一下標題吧?!
如果是簽合約,請問一下甲乙雙方雙方是誰啊?!
野草莓可是一開始就痛罵過民進黨執政時對集遊法修正的忽略,
從野草莓官網一成立就整天在版面上謾罵鬼扯的student不可能不知道這件事,
但還是要睜眼說瞎話,讓人搞不清楚這是什麼心態。
『不參加不簽約就是不支持人權』又是student慣用的抹黑,
請問你看到誰說了這句話?!還是你夢到的?
用一句自己幻想出來的話將別人亂罵一通,
還一副洋洋得意的樣子,
真不曉得是哪個學校將你的基本邏輯辯證能力教成這付德行?
既然你有所謂的全台近9成支持者,
你還是趕快去成立你的『反對不中立野草梅』官網吧!
相信不用多久這些支持者就會讓你的官網竄紅,
就會有電視節目邀請你去暢談你反野莓理論了,
所以不要老是想在這裡借殼上市,
做一些沒什麼人知道又要跟我們這些詐騙集團瞎扯的苦差事!

NINI 提到...

哇,好綠的蔡英文!

我記得你們不是謝絕政治人物嗎?

話說如果執政的是冥進黨,我就不相信蔡英文會理你們,

你們自己想想,為什麼冥進黨執政時不修法甚至反對修法,

現在國民黨執政了,冥進黨卻支持你們還批國民黨,

冥進黨其實只想利用你們挑撥離間!

我0.00001%相信你們沒有政治色彩,

但是我1000000000%相信你們被綠色利用了!

提到...

野草莓如果一開始就以"反國民黨政府"作號召
應該會有更多人支持吧
光從主張的第一條"集會遊行改成報備制"
就已經可以讓大部分人民反對或不予置評
證據就在於野草莓無法獲得主流民意支持
野草莓根據憲法所主張"人民有集會結社之自由"
來認定集會遊行法是違憲
卻忽略了,集會結社跟集會遊行是根本兩碼子事
因為遊行非常容易造成他人之不便
而妨害他人的自由根本就不是自由
簡單舉例,改成報備制,取消禁制區,由刑罰變成行政罰後
我只要看哪個人不爽,就找一群人天天到他家門口"遊行"
反正最多繳罰金而已嘛,對不對?
學生有理想,有抱負,這點是正確的
只是要考慮所作所為是否符合這個社會所應有的規範
遊行是理念的宣揚方式之一,但是卻因為可能帶來的不便
而需要立法來管制
以"人權"這種大帽子來扣,就要使社會失去控制
這種民主只是另一種形式的多數暴力而已

Paul 提到...

To:Atl

你在講甚麼..?
你到底懂不懂我在講甚麼..?

吳育昇好心請草莓去公聽被草莓批虛偽造假..
民進黨有請草莓去公聽嗎..?
民進黨八年阻擋,現在突然想到,這
不是很可笑嗎..?

更可笑的是,草莓八年中為何不向民進黨抗議靜坐,東森-s被關台時你們這些人在哪裡..?紅杉軍被丟石頭時你們又在哪..?

當你們是色盲好了..

Paul 提到...

"她表示,綠營執政後千頭萬緒,不夠注意集遊法等人權問題,沒有盡力促成修法或廢掉集遊法,「這個我們真的感到非常抱歉。」"

這種謊話你聽的進去..??
立法院阻擋了好幾次..

沒注意個鳥,果然是沒擔當的傢伙..

Paul 提到...

給你們這些色盲..

民進黨阻擋集遊法紀錄

共七,八次,最近一次是96年一月..

沒注意..???

Coco 提到...

可悲的台灣只有藍綠而沒有正義與良心
為何這個社會只有某種色彩才享有自由與人權?
沒有任何人能叫任何人閉嘴
而且沒有任何人有權利抵毀他人只因為他有不同的意見
這才是民主
野草莓的同學們堅持你們的想法
不要讓這些謾罵影響你們
加油

ohmygodlah 提到...

修改集會遊行法改成報備制會有什麼樣的後果你們了解嗎? 你知道這代表我能夠隨便的到你家樓下24小時鳴笛吵到你瘋掉為止.... 現在的法令不是報備制都有暴力遊行了, 敢問改成報備制後, 你們有什麼方法可以讓人以上的事情不發生? 我覺得你們有權力表達自己的意見, 但我真的很想知道你們的邏輯何在? 自己有了自由, 但是別人的人權與自由在哪裡? 我覺得修改集遊法是個不錯的idea,但是不能盲目的發表意見吧?

Paul 提到...

藍綠不可悲..
可悲的是明明是有顏色卻假裝
純潔,拿一些冠冕堂皇的理由來
植入自己的政治偏好..

人權正義對這些人來說只是用來摞取權位的踏板..

這種東東我看太多了..

以前的野百合,有多少淪為權錢手下
的煙花?馬永成,羅文嘉,林佳龍..

隨著皮條客的吆喝,一次又右一次
抹上人權自由的脂粉,在暗夜裡出賣那早已麻木的軀殼..

Paul 提到...

記不記得立委減半這個笑話..
當初這些要求修法的人個個義憤
填膺慷慨激昂,彷彿是公理正義的
化身..

現在呢..?

呸!!

chung 提到...

這種人權議題,還有人在爭藍綠。

但野草莓並沒有選藍或選綠。他們的訃聞既送藍也送綠。

是藍營的人自己選擇不來,只會在旁邊看笑話,故意忽略。這是對人權爭取的忽略、漠視、輕慢,以及對權力的傲慢。

綠營的人選擇來了,不管是因為他們恢復在野身份、也受到人權的迫害所以才忽然感覺其重要性,或是為了對抗執政黨,至少他們表達了對過去(不完全令人滿意)的歉意,也在立院推動修法。

重點不在藍綠之間的中立,這東西根本是虛妄的議題。重點在於野草莓對於人權堅持的立場,本身就是正確的。不管就人權普世價值,或是作為一個民主國家的基礎。這都「無關藍綠」。

有些人要牽扯過去民進黨執政時阻擋集遊法修正的荒唐,野草莓也對此表示批判了。但是有趣的是,這些人卻也同時不去指出現在國民黨阻擋修正、或是以「社會秩序」、「社會觀感」為理由,推出一個根本沒有意義的修法版本。甚至這些人還不停以相同理由(社會秩序),認為野草莓的修法主張有問題。

到底是誰色盲,誰選擇性解釋,其實很清楚。

ohmygodlah 提到...

To: Chung

野草莓對於民X黨過去的無法修法真的有很嚴厲的譴責過嗎? 還是等到人家問到你們才發覺這件事? 這個運動從頭到尾都罵藍的比較多吧. 現在所謂的自由廣場以不能容納反對你們的聲浪了, 說野草莓中立? 其中的發起人竟是長昌逆轉勝的人. 說無色彩, 中立的立場令人懷疑. 另外個你說一句 JFK的名言吧. "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country". 學生還未當兵, 還未繳稅, 還未盡國家義務, 請問有什麼資格來批評國家. 學生們的安全也是我們納稅人給軍人來保護你的. 等到有機會拿起槍為國家盡份力再來抗議吧.

Paul 提到...

又一個搞不清楚狀況沒看帖的的..

野草莓若真關心人權言論自由..
八年中草莓為何不向民進黨抗議靜坐..?

東森-s被關台時野草莓這些人在哪裡..?

紅杉軍被丟石頭時野草莓又在哪裡..?


我對你們這些人評語只有一個字

呸!!


P.S
野草莓責備民進黨,是後來加的,原先並沒有,還是在網友舉出事證後..
你搞清楚再來..

michelle 提到...

"重點不在藍綠之間的中立,這東西根本是虛妄的議題。重點在於野草莓對於人權堅持的立場,本身就是正確的。不管就人權普世價值,或是作為一個民主國家的基礎。這都「無關藍綠」。"

Yes! You are right on the point.
This demonstration is about Taiwan flags being trashed by the police and about Taiwan's freedom of speech being suppressed, and about Taiwan citizens having been beaten up by the police for expressing patriotism.

ohmygodlah 提到...

"Yes! You are right on the point.
This demonstration is about Taiwan flags being trashed by the police and about Taiwan's freedom of speech being suppressed, and about Taiwan citizens having been beaten up by the police for expressing patriotism."

Using ur words, if this is about our flags being trashed, where were u 2 years ago when 民X黨 disrecongize our flag? In case u forgot, this party use to 唾棄中華民國國旗, 不承認中華民國為國號, 並當眾侮辱蔣公... where were 野草莓when these things happened? About freedom of speech being oppressed, how about the ppl who disagree with ur point of view, yet was yelled and screamed at in front of "自由"廣場? where were the rights of ppl that day when all they want is to go back to the their house but was forced to take other routes due to a not planned and authorize protest? Excuse me, but even human rights and freedom have certain limits.... if u want total freedom, i suggest u move to a country where anarchy(無政府狀態)is their police, because i love Taiwan the way it is. A violent protest is suppose to be supressed, by overwhelming police force.

michelle 提到...

You said, “where were u 2 years ago when 民X黨 disrecongize our flag? In case u forgot, this party use to 唾棄中華民國國旗, 不承認中華民國為國號, 並當眾侮辱蔣公... where were 野草莓when these things happened? “

Has DPP attacked people for holding Taiwan flags? Have the civil rights of Taiwan citizen been taken away by DPP at that time? Has DPP suppressed freedom of speech? You are confused. Do you think the students were merely the guards of Taiwan national flag and you think they should jump out every time someone attacks the flags? The peaceful demonstration is not only for the freedom to hold Taiwan flags whenever Taiwanese citizens want but also for the freedom of speech and demonstration

You said, “About freedom of speech being oppressed, how about the ppl who disagree with ur point of view, yet was yelled and screamed at in front of "自由"廣場?”

Have these people been attacked with violence for disagreeing with Wild Strawberry? There is a difference between political oppression and harmless verbal dispute.

You said, “ i suggest u move to a country where anarchy(無政府狀態)is their police, because i love Taiwan the way it is.”

Everyone loves Taiwan. That is why the students want it to be better. Anyone who loves Taiwan wouldn’t want to watch it going backwards.

You said, “ A violent protest is suppose to be supressed, by overwhelming police force.”

How was the protest violent? In a democratic country, police is not supposed to attack bare-handed citizens.

ohmygodlah 提到...

About the flag issue, i am pointing out that dun set two different set of standards if ur so call 學運 is neutral, if u call the police not letting ppl hold the flag, then at the same time you should have said something when DDP didn't recongnize our flag for the past 8 years. Its a funny thing how our flag is being use as a political tool rather than a true symbol of what our country represent. About the protest not being violent? i was referring to the protest at 圓山. Those protesters weren't u so called "Empty handed" they threw rocks, shit, and gasoline bombs at the police. Just to give u an example, when the REd Sox won the World Series, ppl in Boston went on a parade, but during the parade, ppl lost control, and started to destroy public properties. U know what happened next? Boston police came out shooting rubber bullet and tear gas into the crowd. Even in the STates a violent protest ends in police suppression. So shouldn't those ppl at 圓山 apologize for causing so much chaos? shouldn't 野草莓 say something about those violent protesters? but have they? 野草莓 protest itself has been peaceful, but such action is also against the laws (admited by the organziation itself). If such protest is rationalized by simply saying u guys dun like the laws of 集會遊行 therefore u dun have to respect it, what kind of role model are u setting for other ppl? What kind of message are u sending to the public? Does this imply that if ppl think certain laws are bullshit, they dun have to obey it?

michelle 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
michelle 提到...

“It's a funny thing how our flag is being use as a political tool rather than a true symbol of what our country represent.”

Yeah, ask President and his team this question, will you?
Why did he have to hide the flag? Is it his political strategy?

“if u call the police not letting ppl hold the flag, then at the same time you should have said something when DDP didn't recongnize our flag for the past 8 years.”

Ok, you haven’t understood my words. Has DPP mobilized the police force to suppress the people who held national flags? Has DPP taken away the Taiwanese people’s freedom of holding national flags and freedom of speech?
Why should anyone jump out and protest when certain people don’t like the national flag? You are missing the point here. Wild Strawberries were protesting for the civil right that was stripped away by President Ma and his team.
Civil right and freedom of speech and demonstration, that is!!

Whoever likes or dislikes the flags is free to express it. Mobilization of police force to suppress those who disagree with you is detrimental to democracy and human rights. Again, this demonstration is for freedom of speech and demonstration.

"when the REd Sox won the World Series, ppl in Boston went on a parade, but during the parade, ppl lost control, and started to destroy public properties."

It was a crime that these folks destroyed public property just to celebrate for the victory, and the police were entitled to stop them. However, are you aware that the Boston police have taken full responsibility for the injuries they have caused on the innocent people? They have apologized for overdoing it.
Holding national flags or wearing headbands isn't a crime; those who did shouldn’t have been attacked and suppressed. In a democratic country, the government is not supposed to suppress citizens’ voices, including dissident political voices.

ohmygodlah 提到...

I am suprise that u dun find it ironic that the people who dislike the flag before LOVEs the flag now? 不覺得很好笑? 民X黨都說中華民國是什麼碗糕. 現在又超愛中華民國. 搞什麼, 我的國家不是玩具, 你愛玩就玩, 不玩就丟一邊的. 之前不愛國旗, 不愛中華民國的人, 有什麼資格來拿國旗嗆聲? 另外, 跟你說, Boston的警察道歉是因為有一名女孩在鎮暴中因被塑膠子彈射到眼睛不辛死亡, Boston police 對於單一事件做了道歉, 但是沒有對鎮暴過程道歉. You even said it urself, those ppl in Boston committed a crime because they destroy public property, 所以你也間接承認圓山抗議民眾有罪啊... 那為什麼警察不能鎮壓? 明明就是去挑釁的人說去散步去飯店喝咖啡. 你信喔. Human rights and freedoms have boundaries too, you u still think what happened is the government's fault, then maybe u should go back in time to MR. 王X宇incident, thanx to him, we needed that much police force to stop protestors.... learn to tell the difference between RIGHT and WRONG, before u justify protestor's actions.

ohmygodlah 提到...

Mobilization of police force to suppress those who disagree with you is detrimental to democracy and human rights. Again, this demonstration is for freedom of speech and demonstration.

Freedom of speech and DEMOSTRATION!! the so call DEMOSTRATION at 圓山 was not a protest, its a RIOT, and i hope u know the difference , and according to Wikipedia, go search under RIOT, see it for urself to see if what happened that day counts as a RIOT i will even provide u the link ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot
and please look under the part "Police Response" and then u can tell me if Police used excessive force. If this silence protest is about human rights, then please tell those rioters to come out and apologize, and stand by the point, VIOLENCE doesn't not equal freedom of expression or demotration. the Following is the US Federal Law on Riots, take a look. Then tell me how u feel!!!


Under United States federal law, a riot is defined as A public disturbance involving (1) an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual or (2) a threat or threats of the commission of an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons having, individually or collectively, the ability of immediate execution of such threat or threats, where the performance of the threatened act or acts of violence would constitute a clear and present danger of, or would result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual. 18 U.S.C. §2102.

michelle 提到...

“I am suprise that u dun find it ironic that the people who dislike the flag before LOVEs the flag now?

Please don’t repeat the question that has been answered. You could quote my sentence and dispute it if that helps.
Let me repeat my answer. Whoever likes or dislikes the flags is free to express it. (btw, what makes you think the person who disliked the flags was the very same person who waved the flag during the visit of the Chinese envoy.) Mobilization of police force to suppress those who disagree with you is detrimental to democracy and human rights. Again, this demonstration is for freedom of speech and demonstration.

The trashed flag by the police in this particular incident is perhaps the symbol of freedom that has been trashed.

“I am suprise that u dun find it ironic”
You were surprised because you didn’t catch my point.

“不覺得很好笑? 民X黨都說中華民國是什麼碗糕. 現在又超愛中華民國. 搞什麼, 我的國家不是玩具, 你愛玩就玩, 不玩就丟一邊的. 之前不愛國旗, 不愛中華民國的人,”

I think it is clear that the students who sit in this cold, bleak weather for so long for Taiwan democracy love Taiwan. Oh, and it is quite obvious DPP loves Taiwan. President Ma also said he loves Taiwan before the election. I heard all of their voices.
Although it is off the topic, but Poston police have been condemned by the public for misusing weapons and bad judgement. The Boston Police Department has gotten rid of the pepper-pellet guns blamed for the death of the student during Red Sox celebrations

The weapons, designed to deliver non-lethal force, haven't been used since Victoria Snelgrove died hours after being struck in the left eye with a pellet fired by police.
Besides, Red Sox fans were crazy celebrators who destroyed properties, whereas the Taiwan protesters were there to communicate with the government and other citizens during the visit of the Chinese envoy. Why do you relate crazy celebrators to Taiwan protesters holding national flags and wearing headbands at the first place? You asked why these people held Taiwan flags during that guy’s visit. Why wouldn’t they?? WHY COULDN’T THEY?

At圓山, the protesters had no reason to throw things at police if they weren’t attacked first.

“那為什麼警察不能鎮壓?”

I’ve told you. Whoever likes or dislikes the flags is free to express their preference. Mobilization of police force to suppress those who disagree with you is detrimental to democracy and human rights. In a democratic country, the government is not supposed to suppress citizens’ voices, including dissident political voices.

“learn to tell the difference between RIGHT and WRONG, “

Yeah, say that to yourself.
It is a choice between remaining silent when President Ma and his team suppressed freedom of speech and trying to restore the freedom that was stripped away. I chose freedom of speech and democracy.

“It's a funny thing how our flag is being use as a political tool rather than a true symbol of what our country represent.”

Yeah, ask President and his team this question, will you?
Why did he have to hide the flag? Is it his political strategy?
I have answered your many questions, but you haven’t answered mine.

michelle 提到...

How have the protesters presented the danger of damaging anything physically at the first place during the visit of the Chinese envoy?

Why did the police have to strip off the head bands and trash the flags in their hands?

michelle 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
michelle 提到...

Are you aware of the term "police riot"?


"A "police riot" is a term for the alleged wrongful,disproportionate, unlawful and illegitimate use of force by a group of police against a group of civilians. A police riot commonly describes a situation where police attack a group of peaceful civilians and/or provoke previously peaceful civilians into violence.

Take one example:
Tompkins Square Park Riot (1988)
Over 100 complaints of police brutality were lodged following the riot. Much blame was laid on poor police handling, and the commander of the precinct in charge was deprived of office for a year. In an editorial entitled "Yes, a Police Riot", The New York Times commended Commissioner Benjamin Ward and the New York Police Department for their candor in a report that confirmed what ubiquitous media images made clear: the NYPD were responsible for inciting a riot.

ohmygodlah 提到...

Are you serious? are u kidding me? should i bring the types out of ppl attacking police officers during the demostration? should i show u the clips of ppl throwing rocks at police and hitting Polices' heads? should i show u the clips of ppl throwing gasoline bombs at the police at 圓山? u calling that a POLICE RIOT? u are such a funny person? please, see clearly what happened, then come judge the police, 不要講的好像全是警察的錯. 不要好像那些暴民什麼都沒做錯. if you want, i can show u the clips personally if u want to see them again!! what those ppl had done to the police that day which 民X黨claim to be a "PEACEFUL" demostration!!!! Even they are telling those ppl to stop their violent acts... and u are here talking about what happened was a POLICE riot? are u pretending that u didn't see what happened? PLease, search ur soul and tell me truthfully, u calling that a POLICE RIOT, i bet u , more than 50% of the Taiwanese ppl will beg a differ..... so pleaase, spare me ur justification that those act was a police riot. It was simply a RIOT, and police has to use NEcessary force to stop it, IN CASE u STILL dun understannd which RIOT i am talking about, i am talking about 圓山. Dun be so ignorant!!!!!!

ohmygodlah 提到...

If you claim that the POLICE were attacked first at 圓山, Pleae prove it with acutal evidence, show me a clip, or an article that says the ppl at 圓山was actually attacked first.... 請不要睜眼說瞎話. Ppl being attacked first. the stripping the flag part... let me just ask u this, why would the ppl that want to get rid of 中華民國all of a sudden love the flag so much, that they want to take it to the street and wave it around? 請你告訴我, 一些不承認中華民國的人, 只承認臺灣國的人有什麼資格來說我青天白日滿地紅的國旗是他們可以使用的? 據我所知, 台灣國的國旗並不是青天白日滿地紅的國旗. 來我們國家的人就是客. 如果我們認定我們自己是獨立國家,我們為什麼要去跟陳雲林嗆聲? 為什麼不能當他們是我們的客人? UN 都不承認中華民國, 也不見你跟美國人, 英國人嗆聲. 為什麼偏偏對中國人有意見? 說警察打民眾. 那暴民也打手無寸鐵的中國記者, 也不見你說些反對的話. 我們警察被打好像活該, 好像他們都不是台灣人, 不是人生父母養的. 人家流血, 你反而很爽, 這就是台灣人的教育程度嗎? 口口聲聲人權人權, 自由自由的. 那幾天您有給我回家的自由嗎? 你有給我反對的權力嗎? 台灣不是你們少部分的人的, 當天抗議只有十萬, 那全台灣另外2990萬人的人權在那裡? 想清楚. 陳雲林如果當時被暴民打死, 中國打過來, 你負責我們的安全嗎? 你會拿起槍跟中國對抗嗎? Police Riot講的頭頭是道, 如果你被人搶或遇到危險, 你還不是要叫警察. 那你在說警察有什麼不對? 人家放棄跟家人的休假時間去跟人胡鬧, 還要被社會少部分的人罵. 你開心? 你良心過的去? 不承認圓山事件是RIOT, then it just means that there won't be any outcome in our discussion. Because your views on such matter is disorted in such ways that i can only laugh.

michelle 提到...
作者已經移除這則留言。
michelle 提到...

"Dun be so ignorant!!!!!!"

tell this to yourself, will you?
Obviously you refused to see the video clips of police riot attacking civilians?
I am sure you can get actual video clips from people at the demonstration.
If you think what the police riot have done is right, you are free to walk away from democracy and justice.

"只承認臺灣國的人有什麼資格來說我青天白日滿地紅的國旗是他們可以使用的? "
"來我們國家的人就是客. 如果我們認定我們自己是獨立國家,我們為什麼要去跟陳雲林嗆聲? 為什麼不能當他們是我們的客人? UN 都不承認中華民國, 也不見你跟美國人, 英國人嗆聲. 為什麼偏偏對中國人有意見?"
"陳雲林如果當時被暴民打死, 中國打過來, 你負責我們的安全嗎? 你會拿起槍跟中國對抗嗎? "

Now your position is very clear.

And whether you want to belong to China or you don't mind living in the shadow of China, I don't really care; it is your choice. Freedom of speech and democracy is my choice.
You are not qualified to talk about democracy and freedom because of your position.

ohmygodlah 提到...

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=6QszcIb0rPo

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOq8XWS798

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=R1dsomoX2Bg

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=kMi7Jkay0fY&feature=related

the above links the evidence of what the police around the world do to supress RIOTs the exactly same thing that happened at 圓山. They use rubber bullets, batons, mase, tear gas to force to mob to leave. After u look at these clips, maybe u should go around the world and condem what u so call "Police Riot" because it seems like to me these kind of "SHIT" happens all around the world. Be my guest to express your idea of Freedom of speech, but freedom of speech is not express thru violence (what happened at 圓山 was violence)

michelle 提到...

Take a look at these videos.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=G7yMh7Udzno&feature=related

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=FfyrlVG5pik

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=ag8vFfk3avU&feature=related

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=4O-x-h05If8&feature=related


For you riot police, WTO 1999,
Seattle’s police chief has already resigned in the wake of criticism of his department’s response to the four days of protest against the WTO from November 29 through December 2. Characteristically, the Seattle City Council has already called for a commission to review police handling of the demonstrations. But neither the police chief’s resignation nor the council’s commission can hide what really happened in Seattle: a bloody, baton-wielding, jack-booted police force rioting against unarmed, mostly peaceful protesters.

About the polite riot in Korea. Are you aware that Korea has a ban on most form of demonstrations? They are not any better than Taiwan in terms of democracy.

And your first video clip is from the News channel controlled by KMD.

I am pasting part of the post by tricksters, who spoke against the demonstration, and who spoke more logically and sensibly than most of the opponents of the sit-in demonstration on this board.

Tricksters said, "唯有這樣層層分析,才能給社會大眾一個公平的答案,進而給予應有的懲處..
雖然短時間要能完全釐清責任歸屬,是不可能的,更別說..政府機關是否願意撥時間.人力去協助調查.
但"部分"警察執法過當是不爭的事實(從網路上陸續釋出的影片),如果因此要求馬總統.劉院長.警政署長.國安首長..須負起間接的責任而道歉,我可以接受.."

I started feeling I was wasting my time educating you......